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769016
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2017-10-11more like thismore than 2017-10-11
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Big Ben: Repairs and Maintenance more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, representing the House of Commons Commission, what material has been used in the scaffolding for the renovation work on the Elizabeth Tower; and what the country of origin was of that material. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberavon more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Stephen Kinnock more like this
star this property uin 107189 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2017-10-18more like thismore than 2017-10-18
unstar this property answer text <p>A modular scaffolding system is being used for the refurbishment of the Elizabeth Tower. A UK sub-contractor is erecting the modular system, which is made from high tensile galvanised steel supplied from Germany, through a UK-based company.</p><p>The modular scaffolding system is supported by a steelwork gantry. The steelwork for the gantry has been procured through a UK manufacturer (Sir Robert McAlpine’s sub-contractor). The origin of the majority of the steel is British, but due to the quantity and size of the components required it has been necessary to source some steel from overseas suppliers, including in Brazil and the United Arab Emirates.</p><p>All of the steelwork structures have been assembled in the UK.</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2017-10-18T17:05:46.693Zmore like thismore than 2017-10-18T17:05:46.693Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4359
unstar this property label Biography information for Stephen Kinnock more like this
390407
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-07-15more like thismore than 2015-07-15
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Divisions: Technology more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the Rt. Hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington representing the House of Commons Commission, what electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions in the House (a) have been made since 2010 and (b) are under preparation in connection with proposed changes to the standing orders on English votes on English laws. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 7244 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-07-20more like thismore than 2015-07-20
unstar this property answer text <p>Accurate recording of divisions and timely publication of division lists are critical business activities of the House of Commons.</p><p> </p><p>The House Service has been investigating means of electronic recording of divisions since October 2014, with a view to improving the timely publication of division lists, making division data more accessible to the public and easier to analyse, and improving accuracy. The House of Lords recently moved to recording divisions on tablet devices.</p><p> </p><p>A trial was held in the House in March 2015 in which seven divisions were recorded in part by division clerks on tablet devices.</p><p> </p><p>Full implementation of tablet recording of divisions is expected to take place later in the current Session. This change had been planned before the announcement of the Government’s proposals for English votes for English laws, although the use of tablets would make it easier and quicker to provide the results of divisions taken under the proposed ‘double-majority’ system.</p><p> </p><p>In 2013/14 the amount spent on electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions was zero.</p><p> </p><p>In 2014/15, the amount spent on electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions was £9,900. This included £5,000 for the cost of developing software and £4,900 for purchasing the tablet devices referred to above.</p><p> </p><p>The work on the project is not yet complete, but the total amount spent to date in 2015/16 is £6,700. This includes £5,000 for purchasing tablet devices and £1,700 to modify the software to enable the tablets to provide the results of divisions taken under the proposed ‘double-majority’ system.</p>
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property grouped question UIN 7245 more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-07-20T15:48:23.937Zmore like thismore than 2015-07-20T15:48:23.937Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
390408
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-07-15more like thismore than 2015-07-15
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Divisions: Technology more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the Rt. Hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington representing the House of Commons Commission, how much has been spent on electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions in the House in each of the last two financial years. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 7245 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-07-20more like thismore than 2015-07-20
unstar this property answer text <p>Accurate recording of divisions and timely publication of division lists are critical business activities of the House of Commons.</p><p> </p><p>The House Service has been investigating means of electronic recording of divisions since October 2014, with a view to improving the timely publication of division lists, making division data more accessible to the public and easier to analyse, and improving accuracy. The House of Lords recently moved to recording divisions on tablet devices.</p><p> </p><p>A trial was held in the House in March 2015 in which seven divisions were recorded in part by division clerks on tablet devices.</p><p> </p><p>Full implementation of tablet recording of divisions is expected to take place later in the current Session. This change had been planned before the announcement of the Government’s proposals for English votes for English laws, although the use of tablets would make it easier and quicker to provide the results of divisions taken under the proposed ‘double-majority’ system.</p><p> </p><p>In 2013/14 the amount spent on electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions was zero.</p><p> </p><p>In 2014/15, the amount spent on electronic upgrades to the recording of divisions was £9,900. This included £5,000 for the cost of developing software and £4,900 for purchasing the tablet devices referred to above.</p><p> </p><p>The work on the project is not yet complete, but the total amount spent to date in 2015/16 is £6,700. This includes £5,000 for purchasing tablet devices and £1,700 to modify the software to enable the tablets to provide the results of divisions taken under the proposed ‘double-majority’ system.</p>
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property grouped question UIN 7244 more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-07-20T15:48:24.02Zmore like thismore than 2015-07-20T15:48:24.02Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
390837
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-07-16more like thismore than 2015-07-16
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Divisions: Technology more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the Rt. Hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington representing the House of Commons Commission, what estimate he has made of the change in the cost of electronic upgrades for recording divisions arising from proposed changes to Standing Orders on English votes on English laws. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 7760 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-07-21more like thismore than 2015-07-21
unstar this property answer text <p>I refer the hon. Member to my answer yesterday to Questions 7244 and 7245.</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-07-21T09:19:26.687Zmore like thismore than 2015-07-21T09:19:26.687Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
425142
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-10-30more like thismore than 2015-10-30
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Parliament: Internet more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will take steps to ensure that the parliament.uk website states the country in which hon. Members' constituencies are located. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 14160 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-11-05more like thismore than 2015-11-05
unstar this property answer text <p>The way that Members’ biographical information is displayed on Parliament’s website is not a matter for the Commission. I have, however, drawn the Administration Committee’s attention to the hon. Member’s request, and would advise her to approach the Chair of that Committee directly to discuss her proposal. The Administration Committee can then decide whether to offer advice on this matter to the authorities of the House.</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-11-05T11:26:43.79Zmore like thismore than 2015-11-05T11:26:43.79Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property previous answer version
27856
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property answering member
151
star this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
518296
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2016-05-09more like thismore than 2016-05-09
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading House of Commons Annunciator System: Internet more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the Rt. hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington representing the House of Commons Commission, if the Commission will make information on the House of Commons annunciator available online in real time. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 36829 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2016-05-12more like thismore than 2016-05-12
unstar this property answer text <p>The House is currently completing a procurement process to replace the software system which enables publication of information on the annunciator service. The solution has been specified in such a way that the data will be available in an open format. The information will be published in real time and made available to connected devices.</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2016-05-12T10:55:15.833Zmore like thismore than 2016-05-12T10:55:15.833Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
648822
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2016-11-30more like thismore than 2016-11-30
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading House of Commons Annunciator System: Internet more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the Rt. hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, representing the House of Commons Commission, with reference to the Answer of 12 May 2016 to Question 36829, on House of Commons Annunciator System: Internet, when procurement for that system will be completed; and when he expects that system to be in operation. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Aberdeen North more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Kirsty Blackman more like this
star this property uin 55714 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2016-12-08more like thismore than 2016-12-08
unstar this property answer text <p>A successful procurement process was concluded in June 2016 for a new annunciator system. As part of phase one of this project, we anticipate the new software will be rolled out by Easter 2017. The system has been specified in such a way that it will enable delivery of the data to mobile devices as part of phase two of this project. A delivery date for phase two has yet to be agreed.</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Carshalton and Wallington more like this
star this property answering member printed Tom Brake more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2016-12-08T11:48:20.917Zmore like thismore than 2016-12-08T11:48:20.917Z
star this property answering member
151
unstar this property label Biography information for Tom Brake more like this
star this property tabling member
4357
unstar this property label Biography information for Kirsty Blackman more like this
349339
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-06-09more like thismore than 2015-06-09
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Palace of Westminster: Repairs and Maintenance more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the hon. Member for Mole Valley representing the House of Commons Commission, how much has been spent on repair, renovation and restoration of the Palace of Westminster in each financial year from 2005 to 2015. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Airdrie and Shotts more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Neil Gray more like this
star this property uin 1774 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-06-15more like thismore than 2015-06-15
unstar this property answer text <p>The two Houses spent the following amounts on repair, renovation and restoration of the Palace of Westminster in each financial year from 2007/08 to 2014/15. Figures before 2007/08 are not available.</p><p>2007/08 - £27.6m<br>2008/09 - £18.4m<br>2009/10 - £31.6m<br>2010/11 - £29.2m<br>2011/12 - £29.3m<br>2012/13 - £36.3m<br>2013/14 - £42.2m<br>2014/15 - £48.7m (Provisional, subject to audit)</p> more like this
star this property answering member constituency Mole Valley more like this
star this property answering member printed Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-06-15T14:22:38.367Zmore like thismore than 2015-06-15T14:22:38.367Z
star this property answering member
103
unstar this property label Biography information for Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property tabling member
4365
unstar this property label Biography information for Neil Gray more like this
349340
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-06-09more like thismore than 2015-06-09
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading Palace of Westminster: Repairs and Maintenance more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the hon. Member for Mole Valley representing the House of Commons Commission, by what process the Commission procures repair and renovation work for the Palace of Westminster. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Airdrie and Shotts more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Neil Gray more like this
star this property uin 1775 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-06-15more like thismore than 2015-06-15
unstar this property answer text <p>The process by which repair and renovation of the Palace of Westminster is procured – whether for the purpose of the longer-term Restoration and Renewal Programme, the Medium Term Investment Plan, or otherwise:</p><ol><li>is shaped by objectives specified in an Outline Business Case produced in accordance with the Treasury Green Book Five Case model;</li><li>is resolved by a contract awarded through an open and competitive tender procedure that is compliant with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015;</li><li>takes into consideration whether compliant collaborative procurement options, where available, are a viable option according to the scope of the work;</li><li>includes a specification and range of award criteria which are representative of, and will be capable of realising, the value-for-money objectives determined by the respective Outline Business Case;</li><li>may be considered within a higher level Gateway Review Assurance process where considered appropriate.</li></ol><p><br>The default position in the Houses’ Procurement Policy is to set evaluation criteria weightings of 70% for price and 30% for quality. We expect these ratios to be applied when procuring repair and renovation works. The House Procurement Policy goes on to provide a waiver process by which a justification and recommendation can be made to vary these weightings according to circumstances and value-for-money considerations specific to a given procurement. A contract that looks to transfer a higher level of responsibility and liability for design to the contractor is a common example of where the balance in weighting may be moved towards quality as a consequence of a waiver application.</p><p>The need for repairs is determined with reference to a number of factors: condition surveys of the Estate; an annual exercise to prioritise the portfolio of projects; inspections carried out on a quadrennial basis; advice from the House’s Design Authority; and calls to the PED Helpdesk. In particular:</p><ol><li>A comprehensive condition survey of the Estate was carried out in 2008/09, the results of which fed into a 25-year plan. This survey identified a significant number of defects, the works for which were all priced and given recommended completion dates. These tasks were then packaged minor or major projects and added to the scope of existing works within the 25-year plan.</li><li>Following on from this comprehensive survey, there is a rolling programme of condition surveys every two years, which similarly identifies defects and further work.</li><li>An annual exercise is undertaken by senior managers, including the Director General of Facilities and the Finance Director, to assess and prioritise the portfolio of projects in order to inform the Medium Term Investment Plan for the following four-year period. Projects are prioritised, taking the following factors into account:</li></ol><ul><li>compliance with legislative or contractual requirements;</li><li>business objectives;</li><li>mitigation of the risk of failure to services;</li><li>conservation of the fabric of the buildings.</li></ul><p><br>The Medium Term Investment Plan is then considered by the Finance Committee before being approved by the House of Commons Commission.</p><ol><li>The Palace of Westminster is a Grade 1 listed building, and PED follows best practice by ensuring that an inspection is carried out every four years by the Conservation and Architectural Team. These inspections identify tasks which should be carried out to ensure the fabric of the building is maintained properly.</li><li>The PED Design Authority, established in 2011, is committed to “ensure consistent standards, value for money, statutory compliance and user satisfaction”. Practically, it concentrates on the lifecycle of the engineering assets, ensuring that initial and replacement capital costs are balanced with the ongoing operating and maintenance costs, and with identified business needs. It acts as a Central Engineering department, and advises on the requirements for works and systems and services across the Parliamentary Estate.</li><li>PED has a helpdesk system which receives and handles building faults reported by Members, Members’ staff, and staff of the House. These faults are prioritised according to service level agreements.</li></ol><p><br>The Director General of Facilities would be happy to brief the hon. Member in more detail, should he wish.</p>
star this property answering member constituency Mole Valley more like this
star this property answering member printed Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property grouped question UIN
1776 more like this
1777 more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-06-15T11:46:30.457Zmore like thismore than 2015-06-15T11:46:30.457Z
star this property answering member
103
unstar this property label Biography information for Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property tabling member
4365
unstar this property label Biography information for Neil Gray more like this
349341
star this property registered interest false more like this
star this property date less than 2015-06-09more like thismore than 2015-06-09
unstar this property answering body
House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept id 18 more like this
unstar this property answering dept short name House of Commons Commission more like this
star this property answering dept sort name House of Commons Commission remove filter
star this property hansard heading House of Commons: Repairs and Maintenance more like this
star this property house id 1 more like this
star this property legislature
25259
star this property pref label House of Commons more like this
star this property question text To ask the hon. Member for Mole Valley representing the House of Commons Commission, what weighting the Commission gives to best value for money in its repairs and renovations procurement policy. more like this
star this property tabling member constituency Airdrie and Shotts more like this
star this property tabling member printed
Neil Gray more like this
star this property uin 1776 more like this
star this property answer
answer
star this property is ministerial correction false more like this
star this property date of answer less than 2015-06-15more like thismore than 2015-06-15
unstar this property answer text <p>The process by which repair and renovation of the Palace of Westminster is procured – whether for the purpose of the longer-term Restoration and Renewal Programme, the Medium Term Investment Plan, or otherwise:</p><ol><li>is shaped by objectives specified in an Outline Business Case produced in accordance with the Treasury Green Book Five Case model;</li><li>is resolved by a contract awarded through an open and competitive tender procedure that is compliant with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015;</li><li>takes into consideration whether compliant collaborative procurement options, where available, are a viable option according to the scope of the work;</li><li>includes a specification and range of award criteria which are representative of, and will be capable of realising, the value-for-money objectives determined by the respective Outline Business Case;</li><li>may be considered within a higher level Gateway Review Assurance process where considered appropriate.</li></ol><p><br>The default position in the Houses’ Procurement Policy is to set evaluation criteria weightings of 70% for price and 30% for quality. We expect these ratios to be applied when procuring repair and renovation works. The House Procurement Policy goes on to provide a waiver process by which a justification and recommendation can be made to vary these weightings according to circumstances and value-for-money considerations specific to a given procurement. A contract that looks to transfer a higher level of responsibility and liability for design to the contractor is a common example of where the balance in weighting may be moved towards quality as a consequence of a waiver application.</p><p>The need for repairs is determined with reference to a number of factors: condition surveys of the Estate; an annual exercise to prioritise the portfolio of projects; inspections carried out on a quadrennial basis; advice from the House’s Design Authority; and calls to the PED Helpdesk. In particular:</p><ol><li>A comprehensive condition survey of the Estate was carried out in 2008/09, the results of which fed into a 25-year plan. This survey identified a significant number of defects, the works for which were all priced and given recommended completion dates. These tasks were then packaged minor or major projects and added to the scope of existing works within the 25-year plan.</li><li>Following on from this comprehensive survey, there is a rolling programme of condition surveys every two years, which similarly identifies defects and further work.</li><li>An annual exercise is undertaken by senior managers, including the Director General of Facilities and the Finance Director, to assess and prioritise the portfolio of projects in order to inform the Medium Term Investment Plan for the following four-year period. Projects are prioritised, taking the following factors into account:</li></ol><ul><li>compliance with legislative or contractual requirements;</li><li>business objectives;</li><li>mitigation of the risk of failure to services;</li><li>conservation of the fabric of the buildings.</li></ul><p><br>The Medium Term Investment Plan is then considered by the Finance Committee before being approved by the House of Commons Commission.</p><ol><li>The Palace of Westminster is a Grade 1 listed building, and PED follows best practice by ensuring that an inspection is carried out every four years by the Conservation and Architectural Team. These inspections identify tasks which should be carried out to ensure the fabric of the building is maintained properly.</li><li>The PED Design Authority, established in 2011, is committed to “ensure consistent standards, value for money, statutory compliance and user satisfaction”. Practically, it concentrates on the lifecycle of the engineering assets, ensuring that initial and replacement capital costs are balanced with the ongoing operating and maintenance costs, and with identified business needs. It acts as a Central Engineering department, and advises on the requirements for works and systems and services across the Parliamentary Estate.</li><li>PED has a helpdesk system which receives and handles building faults reported by Members, Members’ staff, and staff of the House. These faults are prioritised according to service level agreements.</li></ol><p><br>The Director General of Facilities would be happy to brief the hon. Member in more detail, should he wish.</p>
star this property answering member constituency Mole Valley more like this
star this property answering member printed Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property grouped question UIN
1775 more like this
1777 more like this
star this property question first answered
less than 2015-06-15T11:46:30.6Zmore like thismore than 2015-06-15T11:46:30.6Z
star this property answering member
103
unstar this property label Biography information for Sir Paul Beresford more like this
star this property tabling member
4365
unstar this property label Biography information for Neil Gray more like this