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1697796
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-21more like thismore than 2024-03-21
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Prison Officers more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, which prisons have used prison officers on detached duty in 2023; and how many (a) officers were deployed to each prison and (b) times those officers were deployed. more like this
tabling member constituency Brentford and Isleworth more like this
tabling member printed
Ruth Cadbury more like this
uin 19894 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>During 2023, 21 prisons received Band 3 officers on National Detached Duty. The table attached shows the average number of detached duty staff deployed at each site in each month.</p><p>It is not possible, without incurring disproportionate cost, to provide the remaining information requested, as this would require a detailed examination of individual records.</p><p>We are doing more than ever to attract and retain the best staff, including boosting salaries and launching our first-ever nationwide advertising campaign. These efforts are working - we have over 4,800 FTE additional officers between March 2017 and December 2023, and retention rates for prison staff are improving.</p><p>We have committed to recruiting up to 5,000 additional prison officers across public and private prisons by the mid-2020s.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Charnwood more like this
answering member printed Edward Argar more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T17:34:55.71Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T17:34:55.71Z
answering member
4362
label Biography information for Edward Argar more like this
attachment
1
file name 2024-03-26 PQ 19894 table.xlsx more like this
title Number of detached duty staff deployed more like this
tabling member
4389
label Biography information for Ruth Cadbury more like this
1697836
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-21more like thismore than 2024-03-21
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Prisoners' Release: Drugs more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, what steps HM Prison and Probation Service take to ensure prisoners released on end of custody supervised licence can continue to access drug addiction treatment programs when they are released from prison. more like this
tabling member constituency Brentford and Isleworth more like this
tabling member printed
Ruth Cadbury more like this
uin 19895 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-27more like thismore than 2024-03-27
answer text <p>We know that supporting offenders to engage in drug and alcohol treatment is vital to reduce reoffending and we are working with health partners on a range of interventions to strengthen continuity of care for prison leavers. We have recruited over 50 Health and Justice Co-ordinators nationwide to improve links between prison and community treatment services, procured 650 laptops to enable prisoners to speak to community treatment providers before release and we are rolling out the Probation Notification Actioning Project (PNAP) which will make probation aware of prison leavers who have been referred to community treatment so probation can support continued engagement.</p><p>The lower-level offenders released on ECSL will have a release plan put together by probation, and where appropriate this release plan will include access to drug and alcohol treatment. It remains at the discretion of the prison service to block or delay the ECSL release of any prisoners where doing so would result in losing access to essential services such as drug and alcohol treatment.</p>
answering member constituency Charnwood more like this
answering member printed Edward Argar more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-27T13:03:05.907Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-27T13:03:05.907Z
answering member
4362
label Biography information for Edward Argar more like this
tabling member
4389
label Biography information for Ruth Cadbury more like this
1697873
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-21more like thismore than 2024-03-21
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Cycling: Convictions and Prosecutions more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, how many (a) prosecutions and (b) convictions there have been in Greater London for (i) dangerous cycling in contravention of section 28, (ii) careless and inconsiderate cycling in contravention of section 29 and (iii) cycling when under the influence of drink or drugs in contravention of section 30 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 in each of the last three years for which information is available. more like this
tabling member constituency Christchurch more like this
tabling member printed
Sir Christopher Chope more like this
uin 19765 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>The Ministry of Justice publishes information on the number of prosecutions and convictions in England and Wales for the following offences:</p><p> </p><ul><li><p>13711 - Reckless and dangerous driving by pedal cyclist - Contrary to section 28(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.</p></li></ul><p> </p><ul><li><p>13712 - Careless driving by pedal cyclist - Contrary to section 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.</p></li></ul><p> </p><ul><li><p>13713 - Pedal cyclist driving under the influence of drink or drugs - Contrary to section 30 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.</p></li></ul><p> </p><p>These can be accessed by navigating to the ‘Prosecutions and convictions’ tab and using the HO Offence Code filter to select the above offences in the <a href="https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65bd0675704282000d752143/outcomes-by-offence-june-2023.xlsx" target="_blank">Outcomes by Offence data tool</a>.</p><p>The police force area filter enables you to select specific areas, in this case, select ‘Metropolitan’.</p>
answering member constituency Orpington more like this
answering member printed Gareth Bacon more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T16:34:05.51Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T16:34:05.51Z
answering member
4798
label Biography information for Gareth Bacon more like this
tabling member
242
label Biography information for Sir Christopher Chope more like this
1697954
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-21more like thismore than 2024-03-21
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Probation: Resignations more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, how many and what proportion of new probation officers left the service within a year of joining in each year since 2014. more like this
tabling member constituency Brentford and Isleworth more like this
tabling member printed
Ruth Cadbury more like this
uin 19896 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-27more like thismore than 2024-03-27
answer text <p>A considerable majority of Probation Officers first join the Probation Service as Trainee Probation Officers. During their time as a trainee, they will spend around 15-21 months training before potentially taking up a post as a Band 4 Probation Officer. As a result of this trainee pipeline, there will only be new Probation Officers with less than one year in the Probation Service if they joined the service as a qualified Probation Officer and then left within 12 months.</p><p>Retention of Probation staff is a priority for the service. A national standardised approach to exit interviews has been implemented to better understand the key drivers of attrition and feedback from these interviews helps shape and determine retention interventions at a local and national level.</p><p>The Probation Service is in its second year of a multi-year pay deal for staff. Salary values of all pay bands will increase each year, targeted at key operational grades to improve a challenging recruitment and retention position. The pay increases differ for each job role, but to provide an example Probation Officers will see their starting salary rise from £30,208 in 2021/22 to £35,130 by 2024/25.</p><p>The table below shows only those Probation Officers who joined the service as qualified Probation Officers and so will not include any Probation Officers who joined as trainees (who will all have been in the service for longer than a year by the time they qualify as a Probation Officer). The Probation Service unified in June 2021, bringing together the National Probation Service and Community Rehabilitation Companies. As a result, figures pre- and post-June 2021 are not comparable because of the change in the workforce makeup.</p><p> </p><p>Table 1 - Number of Band 4 Probation Officer joiners to HMPPS and those who left HMPPS within 1 year: 2022-2023</p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Year</p></td><td><p>All joiners</p></td><td><p>Staff who left within 1 year</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2022</p></td><td><p>42</p></td><td><p>3</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2023</p></td><td><p>44</p></td><td><p>5</p></td></tr></tbody></table>
answering member constituency Charnwood more like this
answering member printed Edward Argar more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-27T13:04:21.957Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-27T13:04:21.957Z
answering member
4362
label Biography information for Edward Argar more like this
tabling member
4389
label Biography information for Ruth Cadbury more like this
1697529
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-20more like thismore than 2024-03-20
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Prison Accommodation more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, if he will publish the (a) locations and (b) number of places per location of all planned prison places. more like this
tabling member constituency Brentford and Isleworth more like this
tabling member printed
Ruth Cadbury more like this
uin 19627 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-27more like thismore than 2024-03-27
answer text <p>To date, we have delivered c.5,900 places. This includes our two new prisons HMP Five Wells and HMP Fosse Way. By the end of 2025, we are on track to have delivered around 10,000 places in total. This will include our third new prison, HMP Millsike, delivering c.1,500 places, new houseblocks at HMPs Stocken and Rye Hill, as well as hundreds more Rapid Deployment Cells.</p><p>Under current plans, we are scheduled to deliver at the following sites from 21 March 2024:</p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Programme</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Site</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Places</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="6"><p>New Prisons</p></td><td><p>HMP Millsike</p></td><td><p>1,468</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Garth Wymott 2*</p></td><td><p>1,715</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Gartree 2</p></td><td><p>1,715</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Grendon 2</p></td><td><p>1,468</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Gartree Houseblock **</p></td><td><p>247</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Fosse Way Houseblock</p></td><td><p>245</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="2"><p>Private prisons – houseblock</p></td><td><p>HMP Rye Hill</p></td><td><p>458</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Parc**</p></td><td><p>320</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="8"><p>Houseblocks</p></td><td><p>HMP Bullingdon</p></td><td><p>247</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Channings Wood</p></td><td><p>494</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Elmley</p></td><td><p>247</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Hindley</p></td><td><p>494</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Highpoint</p></td><td><p>741</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Wayland</p></td><td><p>121</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Guys Marsh</p></td><td><p>180</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Stocken</p></td><td><p>214</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="3"><p>Refurbishments</p></td><td><p>HMP Birmingham</p></td><td><p>301</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Norwich</p></td><td><p>171</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Liverpool</p></td><td><p>350***</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="7"><p>Rapid Deployment Cells</p></td><td><p>HMP Erlestoke</p></td><td><p>40</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Foston Hall</p></td><td><p>40</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP The Verne</p></td><td><p>40</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Northumberland</p></td><td><p>60</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Springhill</p></td><td><p>40</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Kirklevington Grange</p></td><td><p>153</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Prescoed</p></td><td><p>80</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="6"><p>Category D</p></td><td><p>HMP Hatfield</p></td><td><p>60</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Leyhill **</p></td><td><p>240</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Springhill **</p></td><td><p>180</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Sudbury</p></td><td><p>120</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Ford **</p></td><td><p>420</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Standford Hill **</p></td><td><p>240</p></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="8"><p>Small Secure Houseblocks</p></td><td><p>HMP Brinsford</p></td><td><p>120</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Humber</p></td><td><p>120</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Lancaster Farms</p></td><td><p>240</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Morton Hall</p></td><td><p>60</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Northumberland</p></td><td><p>240</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Onley</p></td><td><p>180</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Ranby</p></td><td><p>120</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>HMP Erlestoke</p></td><td><p>180</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><ul><li><p>* This site is subject to an ongoing planning appeal.</p></li><li><p>** Delivery at these sites is subject to planning permission.</p></li><li><p>*** A wing-by-wing refurbishment is ongoing, with some places already delivered.</p></li><li><p>Any additional sites not listed here are commercially sensitive and information released about these would prejudice the department’s negotiating position and ability to achieve value for money in these developments.</p></li></ul>
answering member constituency Charnwood more like this
answering member printed Edward Argar more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-27T13:02:24.78Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-27T13:02:24.78Z
answering member
4362
label Biography information for Edward Argar more like this
tabling member
4389
label Biography information for Ruth Cadbury more like this
1697732
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-20more like thismore than 2024-03-20
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Courts more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, what steps his Department is taking to tackle the backlog in the courts. more like this
tabling member constituency Broadland more like this
tabling member printed
Jerome Mayhew more like this
uin 902212 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>We remain committed to tackling the outstanding caseloads across our courts and tribunals and have introduced a range of measures to achieve this aim.</p><p> </p><p>Over 90% of all criminal cases are heard at the magistrates’ court, where we heard 100,000 cases a month on average across 2023. While the outstanding caseload in the magistrates’ courts has slightly increased in recent months due to an increase in the number of cases coming to court, the caseload remains well below its pandemic peak and stood at 353,900 at the end of September 2023, and cases continue to be progressed quickly. To aid our efforts in the magistrates’ courts, we invested £1 million in a programme of work to support the recruitment of more magistrates. We aim to recruit 2,000 new magistrates this year, and similar numbers for each of the next couple of years.</p><p> </p><p>At the Crown Court, we remain committed to reducing the outstanding caseload. Last financial year we sat over 100,000 days and this financial year, we plan to deliver around 107,000 sitting days and recruit more than 1,000 judges across all jurisdictions. Judges have worked tirelessly to complete more cases, with disposals up by 9% during Q3 in 2023 compared to Q4 in 2022 (25,700 compared to 23,700).</p><p>We are also investing in our criminal courts. In August 2023, we announced we are investing £220 million for essential modernisation and repair work of our court buildings across the next two years, up to March 2025. We have also continued the use of 20 Nightingale courtrooms into the 2024/25 financial year, to allow courts to work at full capacity.</p><p> </p><p>In the Family Court, we are working with the Department for Education and other partners on the Family Justice Board to tackle the longest running cases and increase the proportion of public law cases that conclude within the 26-week timeline. The Department for Education are also investing an extra £10m to develop new initiatives to address the longest delays in public law proceedings.</p><p>We announced in the Spring Budget an additional £55m to improve productivity, support earlier resolution of family disputes and reduce the number of cases coming to court. This includes creating a digital advice tool for separating couples, piloting early legal advice and supporting the expansion of the private law Pathfinder model. We are also investing up to £23.6m in the family mediation voucher scheme, which we intend will allow for its continuation up to March 2025. As of March 2024, over 26,000 families have successfully used the scheme to attempt to resolve their private law disputes outside of court.</p><p> </p><p>With regards to civil cases, we are taking action to ensure those that do need to go to trial are dealt with quickly. We have launched the biggest ever judicial recruitment drive for District Judges, are digitising court processes and holding more remote hearings, and are increasing the use of mediation. The requirement for small claims in the county court to attend a mediation session with the Small Claims Mediation Service will start this spring and is expected to help parties resolve their dispute swiftly and consensually without the need for a judicial hearing.</p><p>With regards to tribunals, we continue to work with the Department for Business and Trade on further measures to address caseloads in the Employment Tribunal, where the deployment of legal officers, recruitment of additional judges and a new electronic case management system have helped the Tribunal to manage its caseload which remains below its pandemic peak.</p>
answering member constituency Finchley and Golders Green more like this
answering member printed Mike Freer more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T17:15:12.037Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T17:15:12.037Z
answering member
4004
label Biography information for Mike Freer more like this
tabling member
4739
label Biography information for Jerome Mayhew more like this
1698710
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-20more like thismore than 2024-03-20
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Gender Based Violence: Criminal Proceedings more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, what steps his Department is taking to reform the criminal justice system to help tackle violence against women and girls. more like this
tabling member constituency Ealing Central and Acton more like this
tabling member printed
Dr Rupa Huq more like this
uin 902214 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>This Government has introduced a comprehensive legislative framework to prevent violence against women, including our landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021.</p><p>We have pioneered the creation of new offences including coercive control, non-fatal strangulation and intimate image abuse; more than doubled the number of adult rape cases reaching court compared to when we commissioned our End-to-End Rape Review; and made sure that sentences for adult rape are almost 40% longer than they were in 2010.</p><p>And through our Sentencing Bill, we will ensure that rapists and serious sexual offenders spend the entirety of their custodial sentence behind bars, without possibility of parole.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Newbury more like this
answering member printed Laura Farris more like this
grouped question UIN
902215 more like this
902220 more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.86Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.86Z
answering member
4826
label Biography information for Laura Farris more like this
tabling member
4511
label Biography information for Dr Rupa Huq more like this
1698711
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-20more like thismore than 2024-03-20
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Gender Based Violence: Criminal Proceedings more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, what steps his Department is taking to reform the criminal justice system to help tackle violence against women and girls. more like this
tabling member constituency Sefton Central more like this
tabling member printed
Bill Esterson more like this
uin 902215 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>This Government has introduced a comprehensive legislative framework to prevent violence against women, including our landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021.</p><p>We have pioneered the creation of new offences including coercive control, non-fatal strangulation and intimate image abuse; more than doubled the number of adult rape cases reaching court compared to when we commissioned our End-to-End Rape Review; and made sure that sentences for adult rape are almost 40% longer than they were in 2010.</p><p>And through our Sentencing Bill, we will ensure that rapists and serious sexual offenders spend the entirety of their custodial sentence behind bars, without possibility of parole.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Newbury more like this
answering member printed Laura Farris more like this
grouped question UIN
902214 more like this
902220 more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.907Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.907Z
answering member
4826
label Biography information for Laura Farris more like this
tabling member
4061
label Biography information for Bill Esterson more like this
1698715
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-20more like thismore than 2024-03-20
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Gender Based Violence: Criminal Proceedings more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, what steps his Department is taking to tackle violence against women and girls through the criminal justice system. more like this
tabling member constituency Harrogate and Knaresborough more like this
tabling member printed
Andrew Jones more like this
uin 902220 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-26more like thismore than 2024-03-26
answer text <p>This Government has introduced a comprehensive legislative framework to prevent violence against women, including our landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021.</p><p>We have pioneered the creation of new offences including coercive control, non-fatal strangulation and intimate image abuse; more than doubled the number of adult rape cases reaching court compared to when we commissioned our End-to-End Rape Review; and made sure that sentences for adult rape are almost 40% longer than they were in 2010.</p><p>And through our Sentencing Bill, we will ensure that rapists and serious sexual offenders spend the entirety of their custodial sentence behind bars, without possibility of parole.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Newbury more like this
answering member printed Laura Farris more like this
grouped question UIN
902214 more like this
902215 more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.957Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-26T18:26:02.957Z
answering member
4826
label Biography information for Laura Farris more like this
tabling member
3996
label Biography information for Andrew Jones more like this
1697026
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2024-03-19more like thismore than 2024-03-19
answering body
Ministry of Justice remove filter
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Domestic Abuse: Convictions more like this
house id 1 more like this
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, how many convictions for domestic abuse there have been in the last 12 months. more like this
tabling member constituency Strangford more like this
tabling member printed
Jim Shannon more like this
uin 19356 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2024-03-27more like thismore than 2024-03-27
answer text <p>The Ministry of Justice publishes data on the number of convictions for criminal offences covering the period requested. The latest data available, until year ending June 2023, can be obtained in the following published tool: <a href="https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65bd0675704282000d752143/outcomes-by-offence-june-2023.xlsx" target="_blank">Outcomes by Offence tool: June 2023</a>.</p><p>However, it is not possible to separately identify convictions for ‘domestic abuse’ because the information held centrally is related to the offence in law for which a defendant is convicted for. Domestic abuse related offences can be prosecuted under a wide range of legally defined offences. This information may be held on court records, but to examine individual court records would be of disproportionate costs.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Newbury more like this
answering member printed Laura Farris more like this
question first answered
less than 2024-03-27T12:56:58.66Zmore like thismore than 2024-03-27T12:56:58.66Z
answering member
4826
label Biography information for Laura Farris more like this
tabling member
4131
label Biography information for Jim Shannon more like this