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706201
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Department for Education more like this
answering dept id 60 more like this
answering dept short name Education more like this
answering dept sort name Education more like this
hansard heading Department for Education: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Education, how much her Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65981 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-04more like thismore than 2017-03-04
answer text <p>The Departmental spend on iPads and tablets is available for each of the last five financial years and is as below:</p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Financial Year</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2011-12</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2012-13</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2013-14</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2014-15</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2015-16</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>£000</strong></p></td><td><p>Less than 2</p></td><td><p>0</p></td><td><p>0</p></td><td><p>42</p></td><td><p>18</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>The Departmental spend on paper is available for each of the last five financial years and is as below:</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Financial Year</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2011-12</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2012-13</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2013-14</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2014-15</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>2015-16</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>£000</strong></p></td><td><p>78</p></td><td><p>128</p></td><td><p>134</p></td><td><p>101</p></td><td><p>64</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p>The information regarding the amount of money spent by the Department on paper for each of the last five years is published by the Department and is available online.</p><p>The DfE Consolidated Annual Report and Accounts for 2014-15 is online at: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517766/DfE-consolidated-annual-report-and-a-counts-2014-to-2015-Web-version.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517766/DfE-consolidated-annual-report-and-a-counts-2014-to-2015-Web-version.pdf</a>.</p><p>Page 89 of this report shows the spend on paper in financial years 2011-12, 2012-13, 2013-14 and 2014-15.</p><p>This report should be read in conjunction with the DfE Consolidated Annual Report and Accounts for 2015-16 which is available online at: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dfe-consolidated-annual-report-and-accounts-2015-to-2016" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dfe-consolidated-annual-report-and-accounts-2015-to-2016</a>.</p><p>Page 165 of this report shows the figures for financial year 2015-16.</p>
answering member constituency Gosport more like this
answering member printed Caroline Dinenage more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-04T09:48:21.59Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-04T09:48:21.59Z
answering member
4008
label Biography information for Dame Caroline Dinenage more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706213
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs more like this
answering dept id 13 more like this
answering dept short name Environment, Food and Rural Affairs more like this
answering dept sort name Environment, Food and Rural Affairs more like this
hansard heading Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, how much her Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65982 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-08more like thismore than 2017-03-08
answer text <p>Core Defra did not incur any expenditure in respect of iPads and tablets in financial years 2012-13 to 2014-15. In 2015-16, spend was £5,400, and in 2016-17, spend to 28 February 2017 totalled £44,090.</p><p> </p><p>Expenditure on paper is recorded on the Department’s finance system under the general heading of ‘Stationery and Printing’, along with all other stationery purchased. Identification of spend specifically on paper, as opposed to other items of stationery, could only be achieved at disproportionate cost.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Camborne and Redruth more like this
answering member printed George Eustice more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-08T17:34:48.407Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-08T17:34:48.407Z
answering member
3934
label Biography information for George Eustice more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706225
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Foreign and Commonwealth Office more like this
answering dept id 16 more like this
answering dept short name Foreign and Commonwealth Office more like this
answering dept sort name Foreign and Commonwealth Office more like this
hansard heading Foreign and Commonwealth Office: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, how much his Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65984 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-08more like thismore than 2017-03-08
answer text <p>In 2016/17 (as of 1 February 2017) the FCO spent £57,500 on tablet devices.</p><p>In 2015/16 it spent £3,610.</p><p>In 2014/15 it spent £146,125.</p><p>The FCO does not keep a central record of figures for tablet purchases before 2014.</p><p>The FCO employs over 14,000 people in a worldwide network of nearly 270 diplomatic offices. There may have been additional purchases of tablet computers out of devolved budgets. This information is not held centrally and to collate it would incur disproportionate cost.</p><p>Expenditure by all Central Government departments on office equipment, including paper, dating back to financial year 2011-12 is published on GOV.UK here: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/greening-government-commitments#annual-reports" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/greening-government-commitments#annual-reports</a>.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Rutland and Melton more like this
answering member printed Sir Alan Duncan more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-08T16:28:42.413Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-08T16:28:42.413Z
answering member
343
label Biography information for Sir Alan Duncan more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706226
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Department of Health more like this
answering dept id 17 more like this
answering dept short name Health more like this
answering dept sort name Health more like this
hansard heading Department of Health: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Health, how much his Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65985 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-07more like thismore than 2017-03-07
answer text <p>The Department spend on iPads and tablets for the last five years is enclosed in the following table:</p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>2011-12</p></td><td><p>£25,467</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2012-13</p></td><td><p>0</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2013-14</p></td><td><p>£10,106</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2014-15</p></td><td><p>£2,310</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2015-16</p></td><td><p>£3,000</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p>The Department spend on paper by financial year for the last five years is enclosed in the following table:</p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>2011-12</p></td><td><p>£58,113.50</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2012-13</p></td><td><p>£12,922.65</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2013-14</p></td><td><p>£78,656.87</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2014-15</p></td><td><p>£77,960.56</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2015-16</p></td><td><p>£76,393.95</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p> more like this
answering member constituency Warrington South more like this
answering member printed David Mowat more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-07T10:20:46.02Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-07T10:20:46.02Z
answering member
4080
label Biography information for David Mowat more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706251
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Home Office more like this
answering dept id 1 more like this
answering dept short name Home Office more like this
answering dept sort name Home Office more like this
hansard heading Home Office: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, how much her Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65986 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-08more like thismore than 2017-03-08
answer text <p>As part of the Home Office’s commitment to sustainability, we publish data on the cost of paper, on Page 33 of the Home Office’s Annual Report and Accounts, a copy of which is available in the House Library, or at the link <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/539638/HO_AR_16_gov.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/539638/HO_AR_16_gov.pdf</a></p><p>Information on the expenditure on iPads and tablets is not available except at disproportionate cost.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Truro and Falmouth more like this
answering member printed Sarah Newton more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-08T16:36:27.947Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-08T16:36:27.947Z
answering member
4071
label Biography information for Sarah Newton more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706257
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Department for International Development more like this
answering dept id 20 more like this
answering dept short name International Development more like this
answering dept sort name International Development more like this
hansard heading Department for International Trade: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for International Development, how much her Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65987 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-08more like thismore than 2017-03-08
answer text <p>In the UK DFID has spent the following on:</p><p>(a) iPads and tablets:</p><p>Financial year 15/16 - £785</p><p>Financial year 16/17 - £3,664</p><p>(b) paper:</p><p>Financial year 12/13 - £11,532</p><p>Financial year 13/14 - £11,304</p><p>Financial year 14/15 - £8,022</p><p>Financial year 15/16 - £9,159</p><p>Financial year 16/17 - £6,794</p><p>There would be a disproportionate costs involved in collating this information from DFID’s offices located overseas.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Penrith and The Border more like this
answering member printed Rory Stewart more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-08T16:49:05.427Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-08T16:49:05.427Z
answering member
4137
label Biography information for Rory Stewart more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706265
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Ministry of Justice more like this
answering dept id 54 more like this
answering dept short name Justice more like this
answering dept sort name Justice more like this
hansard heading Ministry of Justice: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, how much her Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65989 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-20more like thismore than 2017-03-20
answer text <table><tbody><tr><td colspan="3"><p>(a). Please see below the iPad and tablets spend in each year since 2012 is set out below: <table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>FY</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Spend</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2012/13</p></td><td><p>£19,903.92</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2013/14</p></td><td><p>£38,288.77</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2014/15</p></td><td><p>£68,104.65</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2015/16</p></td><td><p>£202,281.41</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2016/17</p></td><td><p>£646,882.04</p></td></tr></tbody></table>Information on department spend on paper is not held centrally and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. <strong> </strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p> </p></td><td><p> </p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p> more like this
answering member constituency Bracknell more like this
answering member printed Dr Phillip Lee more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-20T16:04:35.23Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-20T16:04:35.23Z
answering member
3921
label Biography information for Dr Phillip Lee more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706266
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Cabinet Office more like this
answering dept id 53 more like this
answering dept short name Cabinet Office more like this
answering dept sort name Cabinet Office more like this
hansard heading Prime Minister: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office, how much 10 Downing Street spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65990 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-15more like thismore than 2017-03-15
answer text <p>The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral part of the Cabinet Office and is included in this reply.</p><p> </p><p>Prior to 2014 there was no support for any tablet or iPad devices on the Cabinet Office IT system nor were there any tablet or iPad items available for staff to purchase.</p><p>Since 2014 the Cabinet Office have purchased the following Ipads and Tablets:</p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Year</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Cost</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2014/15</p></td><td><p>£1,540</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2015/16</p></td><td><p>£6,620</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2016/17</p></td><td><p>£17,012</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p>Since April 2015 the Cabinet Office have outsourced the printing capability functions and the associated paper purchase costs to a new supplier on a new system.</p><p>Due to the migration of Cabinet Office financial records onto a new shared services financial system all paper purchases prior to 2015 were aggregated into an overall stationary cost so are not readily available within a reasonable timeframe for an answer to the question.</p><p>For the financial years 2015/16 and 2016/17 the following information is available:</p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Year</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Cost</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2015/16</p></td><td><p>£45,610</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>2016/17</p></td><td><p>£29,198</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p>
answering member constituency Ipswich more like this
answering member printed Ben Gummer more like this
grouped question UIN 65978 more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-15T12:42:50.957Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-15T12:42:50.957Z
answering member
3988
label Biography information for Ben Gummer more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706267
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Scotland Office more like this
answering dept id 2 more like this
answering dept short name Scotland more like this
answering dept sort name Scotland more like this
hansard heading Scotland Office: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, how much his Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65991 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-07more like thismore than 2017-03-07
answer text <p>The Scotland Office spend on iPads and tablets over the last five financial years is shown below.</p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p><strong>Financial Year</strong></p></td><td><p><strong>Spend</strong></p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>2012-13</strong></p></td><td><p>0.00</p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>2013-14</strong></p></td><td><p>0.00</p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>2014-15</strong></p></td><td><p>0.00</p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>2015-16</strong></p></td><td><p>0.00</p></td></tr><tr><td><p><strong>2016-17</strong></p></td><td><p>£1,736.67</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p>Spend on paper is not separately recorded from other stationery costs and could only be obtained at disproportionate cost.</p> more like this
answering member constituency Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale more like this
answering member printed David Mundell more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-07T16:13:23.9Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-07T16:13:23.9Z
answering member
1512
label Biography information for David Mundell more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this
706268
registered interest false more like this
date less than 2017-02-28more like thismore than 2017-02-28
answering body
Department for Transport more like this
answering dept id 27 more like this
answering dept short name Transport more like this
answering dept sort name Transport more like this
hansard heading Department for Transport: ICT more like this
house id 1 remove filter
legislature
25259
pref label House of Commons more like this
question text To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, how much his Department spent on (a) iPads and tablets and (b) paper in each of the last five years for which figures are available. more like this
tabling member constituency Ellesmere Port and Neston more like this
tabling member printed
Justin Madders remove filter
uin 65992 more like this
answer
answer
is ministerial correction false more like this
date of answer less than 2017-03-08more like thismore than 2017-03-08
answer text <p>The information requested is listed below for each year.</p><p> </p><p><strong>2016/17</strong></p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Item</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>Spend (£)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p>DFT (c)</p></td><td><p>DVLA</p></td><td><p>VCA</p></td><td><p>MCA</p></td><td><p>DVSA</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Tablets</p></td><td><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>34,476 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>2,204 (1)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>iPads</p></td><td><p>0</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Paper</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>2,507,882 (4)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p><strong>Note: </strong>MCA spend for 2016/17 is due to the implementation of the Survey &amp; Inspection Transformation Programme part of which involves equipping our marine surveyors with more appropriate ICT tools while inspecting and surveying vessels.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong>2015/16</strong></p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Item</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>Spend (£)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p>DFT (c)</p></td><td><p>DVLA</p></td><td><p>VCA</p></td><td><p>MCA</p></td><td><p>DVSA</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Tablets</p></td><td><p>10,795</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>2,655 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>1,394 (1)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>iPads</p></td><td><p>0</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Paper</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>3,914,360 (4)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p><strong>2014/15</strong></p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Item</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>Spend (£)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p>DFT (c)</p></td><td><p>DVLA</p></td><td><p>VCA</p></td><td><p>MCA</p></td><td><p>DVSA</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Tablets</p></td><td><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>6,150(1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>249 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>410 (1)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>iPads</p></td><td><p>442</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Paper</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>4,499,740 (4)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong>2013/14</strong></p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Item</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>Spend (£)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p>DFT (c)</p></td><td><p>DVLA</p></td><td><p>VCA</p></td><td><p>MCA</p></td><td><p>DVSA</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Tablets</p></td><td><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>2,223 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>2,171 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>iPads</p></td><td><p>2,660</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Paper</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>4,453,762 (4) (3)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong>2012/13</strong></p><p> </p><table><tbody><tr><td><p>Item</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>Spend (£)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p> </p></td><td><p>DFT (c)</p></td><td><p>DVLA</p></td><td><p>VCA</p></td><td><p>MCA</p></td><td><p>DVSA(5)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Tablets</p></td><td><p>1,166</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>191 (1)</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>0</p></td><td rowspan="2"><p>16,769 (1)</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>iPads</p></td><td><p>0</p></td></tr><tr><td><p>Paper</p></td><td colspan="5"><p>3,070,322 (4) (2)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p><strong>Note:</strong> The DVSA 2012/13 spend reflects the pilot to investigate the use of mobile IT for driving examiners by 31 March 2014.</p><p> </p><p>(1) – indicates spend combined for Tablets and iPads.</p><p>(2) – The figure quoted is before the merger of DSA and VOSA to create the DVSA. It does not include any spend by DSA or VOSA.</p><p>(3) – The figure quoted is before the merger of DSA and VOSA to create the DVSA. It includes spend by VOSA but no figures are available for DSA.</p><p>(4) – indicates a combined spend across the Department. Spend is for both white paper used generally in the office and the paper required specifically for the DVLA’s forms etc.</p><p>5) Note that DVSA did not come into existence until 2014/15 with the merger of the DSA and VOSA – the figure shown for spend on tablets and ipads relates to DSA only.</p>
answering member constituency South Holland and The Deepings more like this
answering member printed Mr John Hayes more like this
question first answered
less than 2017-03-08T17:52:47.813Zmore like thismore than 2017-03-08T17:52:47.813Z
answering member
350
label Biography information for Sir John Hayes more like this
tabling member
4418
label Biography information for Justin Madders more like this